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	<title>Comments on: Dual Currencies in MMOs</title>
	<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/</link>
	<description>A blog on virtual worlds, games, and digital content, from Matt Mihaly</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: MMO Monetization Roundup &#171; Tish Tosh Tesh</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-88746</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-88746</guid>
					<description>[...] Dual Currencies in MMOs [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Dual Currencies in MMOs [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Independent Creator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dual Currencies in Virtual Worlds</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83886</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83886</guid>
					<description>[...] Finally, Matt responded with his own plan for a very similar system in the upcoming Earth Eternal.  He walks through some theorizing about what will happen when gold farmers try to sell to the Earth Eternal audience.  It all sounds good, but it&amp;#8217;ll be fun to see what happens when theory meets practice. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Finally, Matt responded with his own plan for a very similar system in the upcoming Earth Eternal.  He walks through some theorizing about what will happen when gold farmers try to sell to the Earth Eternal audience.  It all sounds good, but it&#8217;ll be fun to see what happens when theory meets practice. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Andrew Crystall</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83615</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83615</guid>
					<description>Late to the party, but as I've said before, it's worth considering Eve Online's model.

CCP are only selling gametime. This is, after all, precisely what a MMO provider offers. It's a currency which enables gameplay without having any direct in-game impact.

At the same time, their system has cracked down heavily on fraud.

Little annecdote: Before Eve allowed time code trading, it's in-game currency was relatively expensive. Less than two weeks after it had enabled time code trading, it's in-game currency prices from gold sellers had dropped by a factor of *15*, and was quite some way from base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to the party, but as I&#8217;ve said before, it&#8217;s worth considering Eve Online&#8217;s model.</p>
<p>CCP are only selling gametime. This is, after all, precisely what a MMO provider offers. It&#8217;s a currency which enables gameplay without having any direct in-game impact.</p>
<p>At the same time, their system has cracked down heavily on fraud.</p>
<p>Little annecdote: Before Eve allowed time code trading, it&#8217;s in-game currency was relatively expensive. Less than two weeks after it had enabled time code trading, it&#8217;s in-game currency prices from gold sellers had dropped by a factor of *15*, and was quite some way from base.
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		<title>by: Top Gamer Blog &#187; Archive &#187; GameSetLinkDump: That Friday Feeling</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83433</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83433</guid>
					<description>[...] The Forge · Dual Currencies in MMOs Matt Mihaly piles onto the gold farming discussions - plenty of links to other good posts on the same subjects in here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] The Forge · Dual Currencies in MMOs Matt Mihaly piles onto the gold farming discussions - plenty of links to other good posts on the same subjects in here. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Top Gamer Blog &#187; Archive &#187; GameSetLinkDump: That Friday Feeling</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83434</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83434</guid>
					<description>[...] The Forge · Dual Currencies in MMOs Matt Mihaly piles onto the gold farming discussions - plenty of links to other good posts on the same subjects in here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] The Forge · Dual Currencies in MMOs Matt Mihaly piles onto the gold farming discussions - plenty of links to other good posts on the same subjects in here. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: MMORPG Info &#187; Developers Focus on Gold Selling</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83084</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-83084</guid>
					<description>[...] Matt (Sparkplay Media) writes about their blind auction and arbitage system on his blog, The Forge: Dual Currencies in MMOs At Sparkplay, we’re tentatively planning to restrict credit transfers as well as have the currency exchange (blind auction) that Iron Realms has, and I’m reasonably confident it will keep professional gold farmers out of the game. I firmly believe that gold farming isn’t the problem anyway - it’s the behavior of many of the pro gold farmers that’s the problem. Anyone throwing ‘morality’ out there as an indictment against gold farming is not to be taken seriously on the matter in my book, but it’s certainly legitimate to find being spammed with gold ads obnoxious as hell. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Matt (Sparkplay Media) writes about their blind auction and arbitage system on his blog, The Forge: Dual Currencies in MMOs At Sparkplay, we’re tentatively planning to restrict credit transfers as well as have the currency exchange (blind auction) that Iron Realms has, and I’m reasonably confident it will keep professional gold farmers out of the game. I firmly believe that gold farming isn’t the problem anyway - it’s the behavior of many of the pro gold farmers that’s the problem. Anyone throwing ‘morality’ out there as an indictment against gold farming is not to be taken seriously on the matter in my book, but it’s certainly legitimate to find being spammed with gold ads obnoxious as hell. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Matt</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82875</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82875</guid>
					<description>Bound credits exist so that we can give out credit-like rewards to players without worrying about them abusing the rewards by using multiple characters. For instance, say we decided to give out a few credits to everyone who participated in a particular event. Were we giving out normal credits what we'd see are lots of players logging in many alts, getting the gift across all his characters, and then transferring all the credits from all the alts to the main character, effectively multiplying the gift. 

All games have potential problems with fraud and chargebacks. In our system nobody is really able to easily cash out to real dollars, so fraud/chargebacks from scam artists trying to make a real world profit are less of a risk.

I can't recall any support requests for players wanting to take back trades of credits they purchased from us. We'd certainly deny those requests in any case. Once you spend your credits, they're spent, period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bound credits exist so that we can give out credit-like rewards to players without worrying about them abusing the rewards by using multiple characters. For instance, say we decided to give out a few credits to everyone who participated in a particular event. Were we giving out normal credits what we&#8217;d see are lots of players logging in many alts, getting the gift across all his characters, and then transferring all the credits from all the alts to the main character, effectively multiplying the gift. </p>
<p>All games have potential problems with fraud and chargebacks. In our system nobody is really able to easily cash out to real dollars, so fraud/chargebacks from scam artists trying to make a real world profit are less of a risk.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t recall any support requests for players wanting to take back trades of credits they purchased from us. We&#8217;d certainly deny those requests in any case. Once you spend your credits, they&#8217;re spent, period.
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		<title>by: Peter Harkins</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82874</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82874</guid>
					<description>I was just reading the Achaea help files on credits and wondering: why does the concept of &quot;bound credits&quot; exist? I can't see a reason for adding the complexity that gamers must bind credits exclusively to the use of their characters before using them. It seems like the amount of time a credit will spend bound is very low. Is there some way that large numbers of credits are created bound (admin gifts for RP?) to avoid devaluating gold?

In any case, the arbitrage example is a really nice in-and-out of game mechanic. Thanks for sharing it. It'd be interesting to hear more about the implementation of the dual-credit system: do you have a problem with fraud or chargebacks? Being on the small end of the scale could help you again here, I guess. Do you have increased support requests from players wanting to take back trades of credits they purchased from you? What are your rules for dealing with those?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just reading the Achaea help files on credits and wondering: why does the concept of &#8220;bound credits&#8221; exist? I can&#8217;t see a reason for adding the complexity that gamers must bind credits exclusively to the use of their characters before using them. It seems like the amount of time a credit will spend bound is very low. Is there some way that large numbers of credits are created bound (admin gifts for RP?) to avoid devaluating gold?</p>
<p>In any case, the arbitrage example is a really nice in-and-out of game mechanic. Thanks for sharing it. It&#8217;d be interesting to hear more about the implementation of the dual-credit system: do you have a problem with fraud or chargebacks? Being on the small end of the scale could help you again here, I guess. Do you have increased support requests from players wanting to take back trades of credits they purchased from you? What are your rules for dealing with those?
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		<title>by: Matt</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82797</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82797</guid>
					<description>I'm not actually sure the blind exchange is critical to be honest. The exchange is critical but ours is blind mainly because it'd be very confusing to look at a currency exchange and see batches of individual credits rather than just &quot;there are 1017 credits for sale at price X currently&quot;, &quot;200 credits for sale at price Y&quot;, etc. The buyer has no real reason to care whether all those 1017 credits are from Joe or whether 10 of them are from Joe, 3 from Bob, 100 from Nancy, etc. You're getting exactly the same thing either way as a buyer.

The important part is having the exchange and having that in-game method for people to buy gold, at free market prices, which will make it VERY hard for an external exchange to compete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not actually sure the blind exchange is critical to be honest. The exchange is critical but ours is blind mainly because it&#8217;d be very confusing to look at a currency exchange and see batches of individual credits rather than just &#8220;there are 1017 credits for sale at price X currently&#8221;, &#8220;200 credits for sale at price Y&#8221;, etc. The buyer has no real reason to care whether all those 1017 credits are from Joe or whether 10 of them are from Joe, 3 from Bob, 100 from Nancy, etc. You&#8217;re getting exactly the same thing either way as a buyer.</p>
<p>The important part is having the exchange and having that in-game method for people to buy gold, at free market prices, which will make it VERY hard for an external exchange to compete.
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		<title>by: Scott Jennings</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82795</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/#comment-82795</guid>
					<description>Good points. 

I agree that out-of-game RMT isn't by itself amoral - it's economics, nothing more or less. Where the amorality (if you're feeling fire-and-brimstoney) or more to the point, the corrosive impact on gameplay comes in is where people who couldn't give a flying frack about in-game community issues drop in, make money, drop out, and sell it on a website. The usual in-game community policing measures that players develop don't apply, and it devolves to the developers to try to mitigate the damage through police enforcement, taking away from the limited time they have to do the rest of their jobs.

So essentially allow the players themselves to be farmers - allow the high school kids or whomever without credit cards to spend the time gathering currency. They are doing it not for real world cash but for the in-game reward - the credit currency or whatever it buys - and because they are part of that in-game community, they are less likely to exhibit the bad behavior stereotypical gold farmers do, because they value their characters and reputation.

That's why the blind-exchange portion is critical - it makes it more difficult (I am under no delusion that it can't happen) for external forces to farm wealth, while making it easier for internal forces (the players themselves) to do so. My hope is that would influence the players to keep the great majority of the economy internal, and thus helps innoculate the game of the negative influences of external farmers.

Hey, it's an idea, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points. </p>
<p>I agree that out-of-game RMT isn&#8217;t by itself amoral - it&#8217;s economics, nothing more or less. Where the amorality (if you&#8217;re feeling fire-and-brimstoney) or more to the point, the corrosive impact on gameplay comes in is where people who couldn&#8217;t give a flying frack about in-game community issues drop in, make money, drop out, and sell it on a website. The usual in-game community policing measures that players develop don&#8217;t apply, and it devolves to the developers to try to mitigate the damage through police enforcement, taking away from the limited time they have to do the rest of their jobs.</p>
<p>So essentially allow the players themselves to be farmers - allow the high school kids or whomever without credit cards to spend the time gathering currency. They are doing it not for real world cash but for the in-game reward - the credit currency or whatever it buys - and because they are part of that in-game community, they are less likely to exhibit the bad behavior stereotypical gold farmers do, because they value their characters and reputation.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why the blind-exchange portion is critical - it makes it more difficult (I am under no delusion that it can&#8217;t happen) for external forces to farm wealth, while making it easier for internal forces (the players themselves) to do so. My hope is that would influence the players to keep the great majority of the economy internal, and thus helps innoculate the game of the negative influences of external farmers.</p>
<p>Hey, it&#8217;s an idea, anyway.
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