Brian Green has a post up asking “How Low Can You Go?” talking about the minimum amount it takes to make an MMORPG. He’s commenting on a post on a very new blog that claims a new MMORPG (that isn’t trying to compete with the giants) could be made for $2 million and take 2 years doing it. Brian raises the stakes and claims it would take $3-$3.5 million, though he allows that some savings could be made by trading equity for salary.
Note: Brian has since clarified that he’s not asserting it would take 3-3.5 million to make a moderately successful MMORPG. He was asserting that it would take 3-3.5 million to make an MMORPG with the salary figures that the author of MOGBlog was giving. I’m going to leave the post up anyway though as I have little doubt many out there do think it takes millions to turn out an MMORPG.
Brian replies:
“As much as I like such a can-do attitude, I have to show some gentle corrections in the figures. First, a snark. a game is still “massive” if you don’t have millions of players. The original definition usually indicates that the number was supposed to be in the triple digits. That means if you attract over 100 players, you qualify as “massive” enough. You still have to worry about issues like customer service, maintaining servers, etc, whether you’re dealing with 1,000 players or 1,000,000 players.”
I’m unsure if Brian is suggesting that you need tons of money to build an MMORPG that will attract 100 players. You certainly do not. Regardless, 100 players is so easy to hit that I’m going to assume he was being completely rather than partially snarky there. Let’s assume that what Brian and the author of MOGBlog are talking about is an MMO capable of garnering at least, say, 10,000 active players. I pick that number specifically because it removes any real possibility of developing a text MMO for the sake of this argument. I don’t think anyone (including us, and nobody’s created a more successful text MUD than us since 1996) can manage to put 10,000 active players into a new text MUD anymore.
So, does it cost $2 million or $3-$3.5 million to make an MMO that garners 10,000 players?
Neither. It can be done for less than a million.
- Puzzle Pirates was released for less than $1 million (30,000 active players). (Though yes, it was released before WoW.)
- Sherwood’s total development cost to date is whatever the sole team member values his time at plus the cost of some (a few dozen I’d estimate) low-end art assets. That is almost certainly far less than even a quarter million and that’s being generous I suspect. (100,000 unique monthly players currently, monetized via Adsense.)
And of course, we’re doing Earth Eternal for less than $1 million. I’d say I’m willing to bet quite a bit that it’ll be capable of garnering at least 10,000 active players but I’ve already bet the development budget! (And happily, we need less than half that number to run in the black if we keep it lean and mean.)
(One thread running through all three of those games is that they don’t aim to compete graphically with the cutting edge or heck, even WoW. Another thread is that they all offer free-to-play options.)
A few points:
1. Brian mentions payroll taxes as being a big expense. We don’t have any. EE’s team all either has equity in the LLC (in which case what they get are guaranteed payments) or are contractors (whom we intend to hire as soon as we are in the black after release) or part-time interns. In none of these cases are there payroll taxes.
2. We all work from home offices (Iron Realms currently has 10 full-time and 6 part-time paid people across the various projects.)
3. Brian correctly points out that you can’t eliminate the whole in-house art department but what I think he misses is that you can combine positions. For instance, Martin Best does both our client-side coding and the UI. He’s also able to tweak 3d animations, models, textures, and so on, as is Ben, our intern that we recently hired as a contractor. Ben has produced quite a few props and weapons but other than that, all art is done by Lamplighter Studios.
The idea with Lamplighter is that we didn’t really want to have an in-house dedicated art director as we are, after all, doing this on a relatively small budget, so we decided that I’d act as in-house art director from a QA perspective and Lamplighter would have an art director on their end handling similar duties while their line artists produce the work we needed. It’s worked out quite well thus far, a year into the relationship, and see no reason why it is going to change. It’s not that they’re necessarily cheaper on a per-artist-hour basis. It’s more that they work with us to really streamline the process and help us plan for things like art re-usability, which is crucial to a small project. There’s a value-add there that’s significant.
4. Brian writes that, “You might want to hire on someone to focus on the business side of things full-time. It can be a lot of work dealing with tax paperwork, getting feedback from the lawyer, etc. Ideally, this person would also have project management experience to keep things running on schedule and on budget. The could also fill in other areas as needed, such as rounding up external testers, proofreading text, etc., during the lulls in their work. Figure another $80k-100k salary if you want quality here, and you do.
The challenge is to find someone competent that won’t use their position as “the biz guy” to try to dictate design. If you plan on filling this role, don’t expect to be able to lead the design, too, otherwise you’ll get overworked and something will get ignored.”
Well, this is partly true and party untrue. Sherwood, for instance, clearly does not need a separate person. Earth Eternal could, to be fair, probably use a separate person as I handle the business side of things and do lead design work (and all sorts of other things too). There’s no question that things will be overlooked but then, things were overlooked in WoW and they had a budget 100x ours. We’re attempting a much smaller scope. Nevertheless, a full-time business person on a project this small is just something we did not feel was worth the money. Keeping the budget low means the bar for success is lower, and that is a very good thing.
5. A marketing person is nice but I don’t think you really need one. A project this size lives and dies on word-of-mouth. Marketing and advertising certainly do not hurt, but thus far I’ve been handling our marketing efforts (though we recently opened a blog on IGN’s RPG Vault with about an article a week written by one of our interns). It’s not THAT hard to get some coverage for your game. Google “earth eternal” and see. I’ve largely just sent out a few press releases that I wrote. A press release is not rocket science. We’ve also allocated funds for advertising but won’t spend on that until we’re into open beta.
In any case, MMOs of moderate size have certainly been produced before for less than a million (much less 3 million!) and we think that the Earth Eternal we can produce for less than a million can garner a moderate sized audience (or perhaps a very large one, though I try to avoid thinking about best-case scenarios). Here’s hoping that at least as concerns EE you’re very, very wrong, Brian.
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April 19th, 2007 at 8:07 am
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April 17th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Caim
Again very great informations.
Thanks (from France).
April 17th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
PekkaR
Hehe. The first thing I pondered after reading that post by Brian Green was how these estimations suited the development of EE. Since my impression wasn’t that the EE budget was over a million dollars.
That first link seems to lead back to this post by the way.
April 17th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Matt
Ahh, thanks PekkaR. Fixed now.
April 17th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Psychochild
You have misunderstood what I said, Matt.
My snark was that people seem to think that if you have an online RPG with less than a certain threshold of people, it’s not “massive”. In most of the original explanations for the term “massively multiplayer” I’ve heard, it meant that you had more than a typical “multiplayer” game had, that is, more than 10 or so. So, if you have 100+ players, you’re “massively multiplayer”. This was a separate issue than the costs. The first line of your quote above was from the previous paragraph, and not related to the rest of the quote.
And, the point of my post was that a project must cost $X million, rather that the person who figured he could do a project for less than a million a year was not properly calculating the business expenses based on the salaries given. Obviously you can do it for less and people have.
About contractors:
You’re not really saving much money. The payroll taxes that the company isn’t paying is being paid by the contractors instead. So, in reality you’re just shifting the tax burden from the company to the individual. Contractors also have to worry about things like estimated tax payments, etc. Now, it is true that contractors pay slightly less than employees do in taxes, but this “savings” is small compensation for accountant fees or the time it takes you to figure out the taxes.
Also, I don’t want to be in your shoes when an audit comes along. There are very strict rules about contractors vs. employees, and the goverment is rarely amused when you use contractors as a way to get around having employees. I’d be sweating bullets when you get big enough to catch the attention of IRS auditors.
About PR:
You may not need a dedicated marketing person, and neither would I, really. We’re both relatively well-known and your reputation in the industry gets you enough attention. We both have blogs that get a fair amount of traffic, and we both speak at conferences, so people know our names. Yet, someone writing in a “very new blog” isn’t going to have that advantage. Therefore, it’s more important for them to consider having someone to handle the PR side of things because they’re going to have to work harder and do more just to get the same amount of attention we would get by default.
Some clarification.
April 17th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Matt
Regarding contractors, I think you’re misinformed Brian.
First, an audit has absolutely zero to do with employment law. Auditors cannot go on fishing expeditions nor are they charged with enforcing employment law.
Second, sure, of course I’m aware of the rules surrounding contractors vs. employees. I’ve discussed it at length with our lawyers and heck, my girlfriend is is a recruiter focused on contract workers. The rules are not actually strict either. They’re fuzzy and leave a ton up to judgement calls, which is unfortunate but that’s the case with quite a bit of the law.
As for marketing yes having a blog and speaking is a good thing…but those are all part of the business. The Forge exists because it’s one way for an independent developer to stay “out there.” It’s not as if starting it was a random lark, nor is speaking at conferences. I’d certainly advise other would-be MMO developers to look at similar options and pursue them vigorously.
–matt
April 17th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Craig Bell (Thalion)
10,000 players on EE? Possible, though since I doubt many of them would be current IRE players I wonder how successful it would be initially for it will (in my opinion) take some time to pick up momentum unlike any text base game that IRE releases it is a definite thing that players from all the other games will try it out garnering it some form of instant success - for a text game. I wonder how you will distribute and advertise the game since this will be a major factor in deciding who your player base will be.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Matt
Keep in mind I mean 10,000 active players, not 10,000 simultaneously online players.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Craig Bell (Thalion)
Aye. I am not particularly familiar with many graphical MMO’s - My experience with them is limited to playing Ultima Online back when it was still in 2D - I would imagine that a game like WoW would easily reach the 10,000 simultaneously online mark - on one server - at it’s low points and although EE has no where near the same amount of money behind it or staff working on it I would imagine that with time and effort it (EE) would be able to reach at least a few thousand simultaneously online across the board which in perspective, you will probably get more out of what you put in than what WoW does (especially if you have a graphical equivalent to the credit system so you can put those Chinese sweatshops out of business and make money while doing it!). IRE always seems to create a very loyal and devout fan base and I am sure that EE will be no exception.
April 18th, 2007 at 1:00 am
Wolfe
I get a hunch that there are three types of development cultures which are discussed between Matt and Brian. Hobby, Indie and Pro. Matt is generally speaking about Hobby and Indie cultures and Brian is on the Hooby and Pro side. I admit this is a hasty type of cunclusion but maybe relevant somehow.
On the topic of how many users you can expect to end up with I am totally certain that EE will get a lot more than 50k unique players over the first year from launch on a few conditions.
- Technical stability is a must, when 50k players come knocking they must find a game that dosnt technically fail due to performance issues. This is where most of the previous “sub 50k launches” has failed most dramatically. (Many try to resolve it by scaling up reactively, but that is a recepie for failure.) The ability to scale on the gameplay level belongs here too.
- Accessible game functionality, if the player is supposed to study the vision or other design level documentation to play EE it will shed almost all trialists.
- Motivating dedicated players, this is Damion’s hardcore customer and the requirement that probably differs most from game to game. Game balance might be another name for it?
These conditions might be a bit blunt and maybe I have missed out on how trends have changed the last few years but I really dont think so. They also assume that Matt wont allow rookie misstakes on the design and implemntation of direct game systems such as interface and controls, or other interactivity failures.
In general the mmorpg market has grown to expect rediculous things from mmorpg’s which are so far from core functionality that I will not be the least surprized if EE comes to be one of the most interesting reference games for the coming few years. ^^
April 18th, 2007 at 4:53 am
Psychochild
Matt wrote:
First, an audit has absolutely zero to do with employment law. Auditors cannot go on fishing expeditions nor are they charged with enforcing employment law.
This is also a tax issue, and it’s more likely that a tax agency is going to drop in for an audit rather than the Department of Labor nosing around trying to find employment law violations; assuming none of your employees are unhappy with this arrangement and thus willing to try to create trouble.
The rules are not actually strict either. They’re fuzzy and leave a ton up to judgment calls, which is unfortunate but that’s the case with quite a bit of the law.
That’s not what I’ve been told in the past. The IRS has some pretty specific guidelines about contractors vs. employees. Of course, they tend to categorize everyone as an employee. But, you should at least acknowledge that there is a risk to this option before passing it off as advice on your blog.
As for marketing yes having a blog and speaking is a good thing…but those are all part of the business.
Yes, but people invite you to speak (and to some extent, read your blog) because of who you are and your fairly long history in game development. If you were a complete n00b developing your first games, you wouldn’t get so much easy attention and have so many opportunities for PR. Someone looking to put together a team that does not have even our relative levels of recognition is definitely advised to think about PR early and often, in my opinion.
Have fun.
April 18th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Matt
Brian wrote:
That’s not what I’ve been told in the past. The IRS has some pretty specific guidelines about contractors vs. employees. Of course, they tend to categorize everyone as an employee. But, you should at least acknowledge that there is a risk to this option before passing it off as advice on your blog.
Well, in our case, that page would confirm our classification of them as contractors as they control how and when they get something done. As long as it gets done, we don’t really care beyond that. There are no mandatory office hours, etc.
The reason I say it’s a grey area is that there are about 20 questions the authorities might ask regarding employment status and there’s no single one of them that is a “gotcha.” It’s a bit of a judgement call, or so our accountants/lawyers have told us.
Yes, but people invite you to speak (and to some extent, read your blog) because of who you are and your fairly long history in game development. If you were a complete n00b developing your first games, you wouldn’t get so much easy attention and have so many opportunities for PR. Someone looking to put together a team that does not have even our relative levels of recognition is definitely advised to think about PR early and often, in my opinion
Well sure if you’re a kid right out of college with no experience working on games and you inherited 2 million, making an MMO would not exactly be the wisest course of action.
And nobody’s saying it’s not important to think about PR. I’m just saying that on a team this size, a dedicated PR person (vs. someone taking on the PR role, as I do) is probably not necessary until post-release at some point. In my opinion, of course.
–matt
April 19th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Tim Holt
So what I think you both fail to address is the importance of DESIGN on costs. It boggles my mind that you can even contemplate budgeting and wondering how many artists or designers you have without a design in mind.
April 19th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Matt
Well, while it’d be nice to be able to fit the budget (and thus team size) to the design, the fact is when you’re such a small company, it works the other way around. The design must be fit into the budget so knowing what your budget is before you start designing is crucial.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:14 am
Iruen
You have a general idea, you make a design that looks finished enough acording to your budget and you keep in mind how in case your game starts to make money you can expand that original design into what your dream
game was.
Otherwise I think you risk too much having a very ambicious game that looks half-finished, or that never sees launch time because there’s no money/time/people for finishing it.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Tim Holt
@Matt: “The design must be fit into the budget so knowing what your budget is before you start designing is crucial.”
Oh definitely. But the thing is you’re tossing around numbers with no discussion of design. Unless you have a good shot at some serious funding, you have to be keeping your budget and your available talent (or lack of) in mind as you design, just as you can’t work out a budget without a design in mind. I just don’t think you can talk about one (budget) without the other (design). Sometimes good design leads to low budgets, but sometimes low budgets lead to good design.
As a sort of twist on the budget/design thing, imagine someone gave you $6m to make a “solitaire” game. Personally I’d come back and say “Sure”, put $5.9m in my pocket and spend $0.1m to develop the game - because you don’t make solitaire a better game by adding more to it. At it’s core is a good game, and throwing no amounts of money at it will make it a better game. 3D rendered cards with specular lighting, animated hands reaching for cards and so on won’t make it better.
It’s exactly that kind of design mindset I think that fits well with low budget targets. Create a design where a) you have a really good game, and b) throwing more money at it won’t make it that much better. Come up with that and you’re good.
And any post on this topic needs to always link to the “Boutique MMO” article at http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/75/15 and the “Learning from Touring Bands” article at http://lostgarden.com/2005/10/game-business-model-learning-from.html
May 8th, 2007 at 5:10 am
Adam
You missed Runescape. That was way under a million dollars…
July 19th, 2007 at 3:57 am
Jonas Antonsson
I’m late to the party. I’d still like to add my own comment. My company is currently working on an MMO for a 3rd party along with another internal MMO. The 3rd party dev effort has a budget way lower than 1M $ and it is still a very concept with good design.
Our internal project is also scheduled to cost under 1M $ to develop and still the game is pretty massive and the engine is pretty complex.
J#
http://www.gogogic.com
http://gogogic.wordpress.com/
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Andrew
Nice read. $3 mil is still a lot of money, hehe.
March 23rd, 2008 at 10:51 am
DamionKutaeff
Hello everybody, my name is Damion, and I’m glad to join your conmunity,
and wish to assit as far as possible.
March 25th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Dan(lazy)Honnet
Hello everybody, my name is Daniel, and I’m glad to join your conmunity,
Wish to assist as far as possible.
May 20th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Candace M. Younghans
Hi everyone-
This is my first post. I am happy to have come across this discussion and appreciate the details that you have brought up. I have been researching the process and costs of MMO development and ownership for about 4 months now.
I am a student of entrepreneurship with a business idea that uses 3D Web and gaming technologies. I have had success finding out the costs of ownership and maintenance in terms of broadband and server needs, dependent on estimated concurrent users and whether it is a high, med. or low impact game. (in my case, I believe it qualifies as high because I will need numerous NPC’s (Non-player characters) aka robots and a decent size AI database to customize the experience for players.
So, my needs are not exactly that of the formula for MMO’s but getting the costs of developing a high-impact MMO would really help me project my expenses.
I find it very interesting how much I have heard the responders to this post say that a person/company needs to establish their budget and then figure out what the design of the game will be.
Now, I know that it is considered close to delusional to think that you can just “break into the games industry” with “an amazing idea” never having done it before…etc etc…but, that said, answering a question about the development costs of an MMO should not be that difficult.
References to how much illustrators/artists tend to make, the average costs of generating art assets vs. buying them. How much a an animator, texture artist, and modeler tend to get paid…how much a project manager makes, lead programmer etc etc. And then how many people are needed in each position in relation to how quickly you are trying to complete the game and how complex it is, how much office space is needed…etc…isn’t anybody writing about this?
All of these components are what a person (who is thinking entrepreneurially and intends to raise the funds necessary to bring their idea to life) needs to know in order to build the founding team and make any kind of a case for their idea to investors.
I guess I am just surprised that as many questions as have been asked about this and as many lengthy responses and discussions that go on, nobody seems to have a place to refer someone with these questions, nor the time or perhaps interest in unearthing these details (not even Tom Sloper!) It always stays so theoretical and devoid of numbers.
Why is that? and is there anyone interested in this aspect of it? If so, I look forward to hearing your insight and suggestions.
Schweet! Can’t wait to hear from you.
February 17th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Omer
I Actually read that Sony’s MMORPG, Vanguard, cost a bit over $100 Million to develop. All I can say is WOW. That is A LOT of money for an MMORPG that is already starting to lose popularity.
Good post by the way. Keep up the good work, you just got yourself another subscriber
(Me)