WoW vs. Glider Court Documents

I personally would consider it a stretch to claim:

“WoWGlider give no tactical advantage to players of World of Warcraft.”

It obviously gives a strategical advantage, and a strategy derive tactics. Or think a little along the lines of indirection and its obviously a tactical advantage given more time than no time. Basically I would counter that argument with something like:

“Every second WoWGlider is allowed to run its user gain a tactical advantage of increased wealth.”

This makes me wonder if the deal comes to be based on the inability to understand the situation among the people who are supposed to uphold the law. Will the judge (or whoever gets to be responsible) get a clouded judgement from several things which are hopeless to understand unless you are deeply involved with this type of product?

Not that I want to argue with your point, but if I still was a guild leader I would definately understand that my guild could gain a significant increase in progression speed if I had all my guildies run WoWGlider while they were otherwise afk (or sleeping). Much because Blizzard has made farming mandatory for raiders, the benefit of using active time online with doing more advanced things such as obtaining better equipment instead of farming gold or resource nodes will make it easier to down server firsts or gain higher arena ratings.

The actual positive change to strategy would have the form of reduced bottom feeding based on improved mitigation of failures which otherwise will disrupt the organisation.

The practicalities involved with attempting to gain a similar strength from other sources are also ugly, like buying gold, account sharind/2boxing or scamming. Where in practice only scamming is encouraged by Blizzard (at least on the EU servers) but discouraged by players.

If Microsoft put something in a TOS/EULA that prohibited people from creating software to interact with Windows (without, say, paying them a license fee first) I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that it’d be hard to find many internet users who would be backing MS.

I think that’s a false analogy. The other admittedly extreme way to look at it: imagine if a company came out with a program with no purpose other than to destroy Windows. That company would be sued out of existence so fast the legal papers would have scorch marks.

Your Windows analogy is flawed because a Windows app would presumably help you without impacting other users. However, in a virtual world with defined rules, the actions of one player can impact other players and most definitely do, and when one player pursues an unfair advantage over the others, it not only hurts the perception that the competition is fair, it also creates very real support concerns.

One tidbit people may not know that I found surprising. The founder of MDY (you can just say that, because it is the truth) has a contribution listed on Raph’s virtual world timeline from one of his early solo/small group campaigns… which was also a limited liability corporation.

Not that Vivendi cares about such things.

As for the case, interesting that they will try to admit exit survey data. And for that maybe we will see some discovery and find out just what type of player quits an MMO because of bots. The ones who expect to cash out for a hefty sum when they get done? If they can’t provide that information, I don’t think they should be able to admit that data.

I hope the trial is in the spring and Vivendi brings a teary-eyed raider to the stand to testify how his guild failed because of the stoopid bots. That’ll be some grade-A entertainment, for sure.

Noticing some of the comparisons in the comments, both in this entry and earlier ones, involving Windows and Zmud - you could also consider harm against gain done by those programs. If nothing was allowed to run on windows - who would use it? Windows relies on having applications to run on it as a platform without anything to put on it other than the apps microsoft makes would be extremely limited. Similarly, if you banned any client for IRE muds that allowed scripting to a level where the prohibited automation is possible, you would probably harm the player base more than you would help it. They help you more than they harm you, as in many cases people respect the rules IRE asks them to follow.

From what I can see from reading what’s been posted, WoWglider has one function, which is to go against a part of the ToS which is there to provide a level playing field, provide a more immersive experience (”Hey, this guy’s killing things I am, and is completely ignoring me!” “Yeah, he’s botting, nothing you can do about it except hope the admins deal with it.” Fun+immersion–), and so on and so forth.

I’m also sure if Zmud/Mushclient/etc. existed with the sole purpose of providing automated ratting/gold farming/levelling, IRE would have far more trouble with them. As it is, it is on the head of the user if they do so at current, as that sort of functionality has to be scripted by the user. I could probably quite easily make an auto-basher for say, Lusternia, without spending more than half an hour on it - if I did, that wouldn’t be Zugg’s fault for providing me with the software with which I made it, but my own for misusing it. However, this product was designed to have that functionality, and thus the source of the problem is the third party designer. I don’t really know about the legality of it, but it looks to be the best move to actually resolve the problem in their favour. If they ban the users who use the program, they do nothing to halt the spread (like if the medical response to a contagious disease were, rather than to provide a cure or vaccine, just incinerate the corpses), while also removing someone who would also be a paying customer - it’s a bad move altogether. With the apparent ability of the designer to get around Blizzard’s countermeasures to stop or detect this sort of program, the only way they can reliably stop the spread is by taking action against the provider of WoWglider, which is what they seem to be doing.

(lurker here)

Say you have an arcade or similar game club, and discover your “users” using some clever tool to hack your machines (to let them play longer or win money or similar). You also find out that the tools are made and sold by a specific company which advertises the product with the sole reason to let you hack the machines in _your_ club.

So I guess you would say: “ban these tools in your club and problem solved”, and yes, it would be a flat solution.

But the problem is that the above company made this tool specifically to hack _your_ machines. And more, advertises it by referring your game and the advantages you get - so it encourages and helps users to violate your rules and such “ruin your economy”.

If they made some tool which could be used for a lot of things and “by accident” it could be used to hack your machines too - well that’s unfortunate, but if its a decent company and warns their buyers not to abuse the tool, then (imho) they are completly free of responsibility in this matter.

Not like MDY, who make a tool specifically to “hack” WoW and they openly encourage you (their buyer) to violate WoW’s EULA. Warning them not to abuse the program is out of the question since it would make the whole deal pointless. So yeah, they are responsible for most of the damage.

(Gotta admit, Damion’s above post about M$ explains this way simpler )

“I think that’s a false analogy. The other admittedly extreme way to look at it: imagine if a company came out with a program with no purpose other than to destroy Windows. That company would be sued out of existence so fast the legal papers would have scorch marks.”

on the contrary. your example is a false analogy because the ‘program with no other purpose other than to destroy windows’ would have to be for sale, users would have to knowingly buy it, then put it to use.

… who would throw a bomb under the hood of their car?

this whole issue is messed up because blizzard got greedy, and they are going about this the wrong way. this case will end badly either way it ends, but SORRY BLIZZ, i’d rather not have my rights stepped on. i hope they lose the case.

Glider does not deprive Blizzard of a dime.

It does not stop World of Warcraft from operating.

Except for a technical violation of the Terms of Service, the application plays the game no different than any other grinder.

The only clear costs Blizzard inflicts are on itself for erratically banning people for using the product.

oh, and the lawsuit.

Conspiracy to subvert a EULA is far from a crime.

By the way, wouldn’t it be nice if Blizzard was held just a little bit accountable for building a game that a substantial number of players feel is so boring that players would rather have a program play it than play it themselves?

Oh, and this number MUST be substantial, if Blizzard is bothering to hunt MDY down.

I don’t know but I honestly think that this would create more players for Blizzard than it causes them to lose. I mean their premise relies on the fact that someone’s supposedly going to go… ack that guy is botting to level his character instead of playing the game like me, I should quit! I’ve never encountered anyone examining the situation in such a fashion. Granted, I haven’t talked with a large percentage of the population, but amongst the many guilds I’ve been amongst, I can’t see that being the response to said situation.

On the other hand, you have a significant population that can’t play these games because of the time investment they require. Half the time I think that the reason there aren’t more “older” gamers is because games require such a large portion of your day if you want to remain competitive. Take a normal “raiding” guild in WoW… if you miss one day from level 1 to 60, you’re so far behind that trying to catch up is almost futile and then you miss out on doing everything with your friends.

Ultimately I think if WoWGlider was unofficially left alone, they’d gain more players than they’d lose through its use.

PlayNoEvil, unless you subvert any DRM system. Like, oh, Warden.

Oops.

As I’ve said before, Blizzard have allready proven a case which was in many ways weaker than this. (BNetD)

My possibly lacking sense for common sense says both deserve to lose. Blizzard should know that their design desicions will cause bots to emerge, and either redesign or cope with the effect on their own turf.

The bot makers should have to do combat with Blizzard in an arms race which Blizzard will win if they were to give it reasonable effort. Blizzard decided to go against the industry standards which makes “end game characters” infinately wealthy and the bots is the price they pay for their innovation.

Forcing hardcore players to play a game where time = power has bots as one of several deterministic consequences. Another interesting consequence (which surfaced when Naxxramas was introduced a few months ago) is that the elite group of players which dominate the development of the WoW culture suddenly turned from anti-RMT to Pro-RMT, as ingame currency suddenly became a needed resource for access the gameplay which gives you power to influence the culture.

In practice this means that large and powerful guilds which until Naxxramas frowned upon anyone who was sucky enough to buy gold on eBay now encouraged their own members to buy gold on eBay. The same argument can be made when replacing ‘buy gold’ with ‘WoWGlider’.

I see all of you bickering one way or the other and some of you just making comments about this and that. But if you look at it from this perspective you may see exactly why WoWGlider is a problem - You have a bot that allows people to have the game running collecting items and gold. In turn the economy in the game sky rockets and makes it to where if anyone wants anything good they need to do a couple of things.

1) Get the Program (which is $25.00)

2) Spends Hours Upon Hours Getting gold to purchase something that is outrageously priced.

3) pay someone money for gold that has already been farmed by the above bot.

4) Just give up and quite playing (which is inevitable)

Truth be told the bot ruines the game for more people than it helps. The game runs on an economy and some items are harder to get than others. I feel Blizzard has every right to try and close down WoWGlider because it is making a product specifically for a game that it does not have rights to and selling it for use in that manner. Blizzard uses it own servers which we play on with the characters we create. If the bot isnt stopped what will end up happening? Economy in the game will sky rocket and prices will end up like they have on EQ where the only way you can get anything good is if you purchase the gold which is again against the ToA and EULA. Im all for shutting this guy down for making a program that will ruine gameplay for people who actually enjoy the game.

Syn, or you can design a game economy which is not so blatantly simple that a few, simple minded, bots can seriously disrupt it. I’d commend Eve Online to you for that - most of the issues there have been because of exploits relating to player activity and complexes (Eve dungeons). Eve’s inflation has nothing to do with Bots and everything to do with CCP’s deliberate design choices (strange but true..never figured that one out).

Anyway, again, Blizzard have already demonstrated in a harder case than this their points, so they will probably succeed in this. And several major mods have already been abandoned, because while they’re not in the line of fire now, Blizzard won’t give indemnities. The next time the patch breaks mods, a lot of quite popular ones are going to vanish.

And y’know what? They’re right.

I’ll get to the point in a minute:
I have never played WoW, because I have never believed in spending money to get a game that I then have to continue to spend money on to play. However, I did play Blizzard’s extremely popular Diablo 2 online for quite some time, roughly, until the 1.10 patch emerged and they changed the game forever, making it virtually impossible for the weekend warrior to get anywhere. Even before this however, there were hundreds, perhaps even thousands of bots operating on their servers. I *knew* people IRL that ran bots, they were that common. And what I discovered is that first, in any community there will be a market that fluctuates with the varying needs of the community. Secondly, bots destroy this economy. One of the more rare items in the game (SoJ, anyone?) was at first something to be bought only through much time and saving and hoping that someone would sell. But eventually SoJs were so commonplace that they had become the new currency. Hacks and farming bots brought this about. One of my saddest days playing that game (second only to the debut of the 1.10 patch) was after I had played and saved and traded and bought, until I had nearly all the ultimate items for a single character, and then Blizzard did a massive wipe of all fake items and known bots and hack programs, and I lost nearly everything I had, because everything I had traded for was hacked, and just drifted though the market until it came to me. Why was I penalized for playing honestly? I never bought items on ebay. I never payed real money for any in-game benefits. Yes, I chose to participate in the in-game community in which there were risks, but for a (part of the) game that is designed to be multi-player, participation in the community is nearly mandatory. My point is that in my opinion: 1. A bot is a type of hack. 2. The use of hacks affects those who use them and those who do not. 3. The creation of a hack that is then distributed to the public disrupts game play for those who deliberately play without hacks as the game is designed to be played.
Is the third party responsible for the public disruption? In the state of Illinois it is illegal to set off fireworks without proper authorization. You cannot buy anything more than smoke bombs in Illinois, because anything more than smoke bombs in Illinois cannot be sold. But you can buy them in Missouri, and people routinely buy fireworks in Missouri and then set them off in Illinois. You get busted for selling in Illinois, you get busted for making boom-boom in Illinois (if you get caught). Perhaps what we need here is a combination of both busting the seller/maker and busting the user. Or maybe, Blizzard could just incorporate the hack into the program itself. Now *everyone* can farm while they are asleep. Except me. I don’t play WoW. -_-’

WoWglider is simply not human. Everyone who claims that WoWGlider acts in just the way a human does needs to pickup C++ for dummys or what memory reading is. WoWGlider just like there other program (Kick Ass Map) allows the bot to understand where monsters are at a greater distants then players can see. Simply put WoWglider doesn’t view the screen with any form of “Human Eyes”. It looks into memory to see a debuff, a monster, ect. I have made bots for many games in my life (Without memory reading techquies though they are fun and make the bots much easier to program and powerful) so yes I’m biest BUT!. I’m not saying WoWGlider is wrong. Its just does not act as a human. A human acting bot would atleast use screen scraping to find monsters and items not memory read. Thus you would program “Eyes” into your bot.

This is to Andrew Crystall, no the mods will not disappear if Glider lost, it is human nature to make machines and let them do the dummy work. Without Glider there will be others to fill in the blank, I got my bot out in less then a month, and I am sure other engineers (most of the good programmers I know plays some game) will do that if they fell the time constraint.