More on WoW Glider

WoW glider is aimed at WoW players specifically to let them do something which was already against the TOS of WoW before this program ever existed.

Zmud is not aimed at a specific mud, and is not aimed at allowing peopel to cheat or break the TOS of a specific mud. The fact that it also allows people to make such use of it doesn’t change that.

Intention is quite important in such cases.

All those people who put websites explaining how to crack a program and giving all the software for it and detailed instructions are not to be held responsible for users actually cracking the program with them? Even if they make thousands of dollars selling said software?

WoWGlider isn’t a generic client that just happens to be able to be used to bot… Is a bot maker with some AI built in to make stuff easier. It even says it was designed to make stuff that is forbidden by ToS and warns the users clearly that’s illegal. If you read their forums the major worry of the users is “delete the database plx or they’ll ban us!!”.

The guy made something with a program that isn’t his, reverse-engineered it to the point of knowing what’s in the memory positions, and sold it to make a profit out of Blizzard property encouraging people to do something against the ToS. In America. He also had the bad luck of doing it against somebody with a big team of lawyers, and will make the next people making this kind of software to rethink much about it. Similar as to how IRE bans or shrubs people for doing bad things abusing bugs in game and announces it clearly so people don’t feel like doing it themselves, I guess.

Another point that is missed here is that WoWGlider started it. When Blizzard started banning people that they caught using it and then started modifying their detection program to keep up with changes so that they could catch people using it the WoWGlider people threatened to sue them. This is just Vivendi/Blizzards counter-suit to protect themselves.

If you decided to change your ToS such that using Microsoft’s telnet client broke it and then threatened to sue Microsoft you can bet that they would have a counter-suit in the courts before the ink was dry on your suit.

If you ban users that use the scripting functions of ZMud to cheat in your game and Zugg threatened to sue you because you were costing him potential customers wouldn’t you feel the need to protect yourself by filing a counter-suit?

I’m not saying that any of Blizzard’s claims hold water I’m just saying this is a typical corporate reaction to being threatened with legal action. That, in itself, is kind of a sad commentary on the state of our legal system.

Matt, a logical continuation of Blizzard vs BNetD. The day they fired the lawyer who initiated that case, I got a WoW account. Today, I’ll be canceling it.

The problem is not sueing WoW Glider. There are narrow and specific rights which Blizzard could assert to go after WoW Glider, indeed, and if Blizzard had restricted itself to them I would have no problem with this action. The problem is the sweeping claims being made, which will make modding games legally very, very difficult.

Since BNetD, I’ve looked for an explicit developer statement before I began modding a game. If their claims in this case pass unhindered, I’d want a signed legal release.

After reading Matt’s comments yesterday and today, and thinking about Raph’s discussion of the issue on his own blog and here, I’m inclined to agree more and more (reversing my previous stance).

And not because I think that WoW glider is the coolest thing since sliced bread, but more because of the reasons behind the lawsuit. It’s not really a ToS issue. Account sharing is technically illegal and that’s done all the time, and accepted by most players. All the legal claims aside, Blizzard doesn’t like 3rd party apps because the idea is that the playerbase doesn’t like it (and it therefore causes considerable headaches for them). It’s “cheating”, right? I would have said so yesterday.

But the fact is that everyone is paying $15 a month to play the game. If I enjoy spending my time killing murlocs, and someone else wants to skip that by using a 3rd party program while they go watch TV, I shouldn’t feel “cheated”. All they’re doing is playing differently (or not playing as the case may be).

Also, there are easier ways to force your playerbase to do what you want them to aside from consequences or litigation outside the game, especially if you design your game around it. Want to discourage botting? Implement diminishing returns on camping one area, or make combat more reactive and complex, or make all activities completely group dependent. These all will have repercussions within your player community, of course, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

You either support a wide variety of playstyles, or you don’t, and your users can only work with what you give them. If they don’t like it, they leave. Golf courses wouldn’t sue someone who enjoyed running to each hole and dropping the ball in (although they might be shunned by the other players), nor would they have the right to.

I have to agree with Aidil here, Matt. Your attempt to reduce the problem to one of technological competence seems to me to end up in reductio ad absurdum territory pretty quickly. Everything can be brought back further to increasingly powerful and generic ideas. I would go on about it, but “Intention is quite important in such cases.” seems to me to summarize what needs to be said. Philosophically this may be a dubious distinction - but the legal system’s task is surely first and foremost a pragmatic one…

I do agree with everything else you say; most of all, the whole thing feels tacky.

The question is really whether Blizzard should sue someone for making a tool that is intended to be used with their service, when people don’t like it. The ToS doesn’t say you can’t make 3rd party tools that interact with their game (nor could they legally defend such a decree, really). It only says you can’t use such apps when you play their game.

The culprits here are the players who break the ToS. Just because someone facilitates that doesn’t mean they owe Blizzard anything. Anyone with skill could code a WoW glider program. That’s not illegal. The guys at WoW glider are selling their coding skill and expertise, and people are willing to pay for it and are individually responsible for their own actions with the program.

Example: Osco Drug sells candy. I buy candy there before I go see a movie, and sneak it in. I’m not breaking any laws (am I?), because I’m allowed to eat food wherever I want, but I am breaking the ToS of the movie theater and getting an unfair advantage over the people who pay $5.00 for a snickers bar. If they catch me, they can kick me out, but they can’t claim that Osco Drug is hurting their customer goodwill or stealing their profits, because I chose to bring the candy in, even if Osco Drug had a sign that said “Hey, you can sneak our candy into the movies!”

WoWGlider was developed with the sole intent of making possible something that is illegal in a game acording to the ToS. It’s not a program that makes stuff that somebody can trick into being a bot (there’s programs that can be used to save a sequence of actions and repeat them and they aren’t sued), it’s a program that hides itself from the WoW Warden, imitates a human being at the keyboard and reads the memory positions of the game to get the information about what to do. I think it could be considered to be a hack of the program, and I don’t know if that would be a breach of that IP regulations people are so full off lately.

Now, if you used a propietary client for your MUDs and only allowed the use of that and ZMUD adverticed that they can bypass your protections by reverse ingeniering them and make your program think the player is using the right propietary client (giving the player advantage and for example favoring the farming of credits to be sold by RL money by third parties while pissing off your playerbase due to the lack of available monsters to kill) you’d probably be in a more similar case to Blizzard.

>>There is a vast chasm of difference between banning someone and filing >>lawsuits however.

Half the list of reasons Blizzard uses are total nonsense to me, but I guess the longer the list is the more guilty the other part can look (their list of accusations is also quite impressive). I see Blizzard as trying to get rid of a lot of problems by one legal action. It scares possible bots-to-be, maybe gets some money from the wowglider guys and tells the playerbase “See, we do something against those who make goldselling easy and all those annoying bots”. In a country where lawsuits are filled for the stupidest reasons and money change hands due to them it’s not surprising Blizzard goes that way (without entering into being good or bad).

Iruen, sure. BUT, Blizzard are claiming EULA breaches as well as DMCA. If this was purely a DMCA case, I’d blink and get on playing WoW. As it is, it’s using the EULA as an extraordinarily large crowbar.

There’s nothing wrong with using reductio ad absurdum to prove your point, however, if you are going to use it then you should at least follow the same premise of the original situation in question - something that Cameron Sorden (no offense personally) hasn’t done. Blizzard is a big company, it probably wouldn’t sue knowing it couldn’t win or had a slim chance to. I will explain why I feel Blizzard is right by using the following logical example (reductio ad absurdum and a correction of Sorden’s example):

Imagine that a really movie theater opens and is enjoying considerable success. Now imagine that a third party sets up shop for a service that saves the best seats in the theater for the patrons of that third party shop - something that the theater does not allow. Therefore, now, many patrons of the theater that are also patrons of this third party service are enjoying better seats than other patrons. Now the theater, who has discovered this service, demands that the service discontinue and to recompensate the theater for the loss in the revenue of the patrons it banned who it found used the service and for the loss of faith in other customers who did not use the third party service who no longer return because of their perceived disadvantage.

For those who did not follow the logic, the theater is WoW; the owners of the theater, Blizzard/Vivendi or whoever; the third party service provider, the creator or owner of WoW Glider; the service he/they provided, WoW Glider; the patrons who used the service and were kicked out of the theater, the cheaters using WoW Glider and finally the innocent patrons who got less value in their experience than they paid for are the non-cheating players of WoW.

Why is this example better than Sorden’s? For the basic fact that WoW Glider isn’t selling any ol’ generic candy that can be snuck in any theaters, but a candy store that sells candy that can only be eaten at that particular theater! In Sorden’s example, the candy is generic and can be used in all theaters - this is clearly not the case with WoW Glider that was intended to work SPECIFICALLY with WoW.

In essence, the reason why Blizzard is suing is because another party has exploited Blizzard’s property, without their consent, to make money and in effect, drive away other customers who may now feel that the game is compromised.

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In response to Matt’s original point about loss of goodwill from customers:

Blizzard doesn’t care about the goodwill of the customers who are going to cheat and whom Blizzard is going to ban anyway, Blizzard cares about the goodwill and the faith of customers who wanted to play the game the way it was designed to be played, namely, in a fair way where hard work (i.e. playing more) is rewarded. Why would someone who wishes to play fair in WoW buy and subscribe to a game full of cheaters? Blizzard has learned from its previous experiences wiith Diablo I.

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If Blizzard doesn’t draw the line here, then where will it? If they don’t stop cheaters / people who corrupt its product for their own benefit now, then eventually the game would be too far gone to be profitable to them anymore and less enjoyable for the fan/subscriber base in the end. If they don’t stop the buck here, who knows what kind of cheats they will come up with in the future? Let’s look to Diablo for a historical example shall we? Infinite amount of money, ability to create any equipment you choose, and oh did I mention invincibility? Where would the fun be in a game like that? Sure the game might be fun for those early cheaters who dominate the game and could slaughter anyone or anything in their path, but when everybody becomes invincible, have infinite amounts gold and are able to create rather than hunt for their equipment, then the game becomes pointless to play. Just put yourself into Blizzard’s shoes, would you like it if someone exploited your property without your consent, used it to profit themselves and ultimately ruins your hard work and profitability?

I think the creator(s) of WoW Glider are leeches.

Oh and to follow up, I agree that the people who choose to buy the product and cheat themselves deserved to be punished as well as the product’s creators. I know you’re probably sick of reductio ad absurdum by now but I can’t resist: If a drugdealer sells drugs to someone, should the person who sells the drugs be punished or the person who buys and uses it? Think about that.

@ Unspoken:

A flaw in your example argument is that to save the seats, the company would have to actually get into the theater somehow. Once they’re on theater property, the place has every right to kick them off if they’re disrupting service.

That’s why I feel that the candy argument is better for this case, because the guys at WoW Glider aren’t offering to go break the ToS for people. They’re selling their coding experience to people who don’t code, and pointing out where they can go use it.

The point I was trying to make is that, yes, it is sleazy of them to do it, but Blizzard can’t tell them what programs they can or can’t design and code. They also can’t tell them whether they can sell their work, or how they should advertise it. What they can do is continue banning bots or develop more creative solutions to discourage undesired behavior in their game.

Well, they can do those things through force, but they shouldn’t under the law. Nobody is saying that the program creators are stand-up guys, but they should have some rights.

You want to draw a line and prevent abuse, but look at it another way: What if Blizzard sued them and won? Then, in two months, Blizzard decides it’s tired of complaints from groups of unorganized people against the guys who roll the BG’s in premades using Ventrilo. Ventrilo is a 3rd party app that runs in the background and helps the players communicate faster than they would if they had to type everything (how the game was designed). That sounds remarkably like a speed hack. Why couldn’t they then sue Ventrilo under the same principle? Lets assume for the sake of the argument that Ventrilo was designed to be used only in WoW and was advertised as such. Call it WoWtrilo. The only difference between WoWtrilo and WoW Glider is that one is an accepted 3rd part app and one is unpopular.

Cameron Sorden, except again that is exactly the precident set in Blizzard vs BNetD, if you read the wide ranging claims in there.

In regards to Matt’s comment:

True, while one would be considered a criminal offense (selling drugs) and the other a civil offense (WoWGlider), my point is that both are illegal in my opinion because doing both runs on the same logic. It is true that selling drugs is illegal, but the point we’re trying to argue is if whether or not selling WoWGlider is. That’s the whole point of the topic isn’t it? To see if Blizzard has the right to sue the creators of WoWGlider? In addition, your example is not a correct parallel as creating WoWGlider would be the parallel to creating drugs not selling it. What I was trying to prove with this parallel is that both drugs and WoWGlider are created with very specific purposes in its use. Sure…people could use drugs to decorate their walls or put them into sacks and use them as pillows or what have you, but everyone knows people make drugs for the purposes of trading it for money or using it (which is what happens at the end of trades anyway). WoWGlider is the same thing. Why would someone create a program that can ONLY be used with WoW? - there aren’t really that many explanations and even if you could come up with one, would it really hold up in a jury trial? People aren’t stupid; if someone created a program that hacks specifically into another then people can see what the creators had in mind for its uses.

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To comment on Cameron

I’m glad you pointed out your argument about entering the theater. It was precisely my point that the creators of WoWGlider entered the theater the second they utilized Blizzard property for their own profits. I mean the example of a seat-saving service could be replaced with one that sells candy as well. What the creators of WoWGlider has done is set up a candy shop that perhaps undercuts prices WITHIN the theater since they are targetting only theater patrons using the market appeal of the theater. This corresponds to the creators of WoWGlider using Blizzard property to attract Blizzard customers. I chose not to use the candy shop example before because it does not properly illustrate the unfair nature of competition between customers who buy candy or not. They are using Blizzard property because their code must be based on something, those coordinates / actions their bots give aren’t just some random ones that will work with any game - they are WoW specific! What has happened is that Blizzard did not notice the WoWGlider creators were using their property before and now that they have, they are calling the police (legal system) to kick them out of their theater (WoW).

Okay, so stepping away from our hypothetical theater arguments for a second, I still fail to see how WoW Glider has done something illegal, according to the law (not the EULA).

I’m not familiar with Blizzard v. BNetD, so I can’t speak to any precedent it may have set… is there a summary of the case somewhere? I’m just curious to read it, now.

They are selling a program to be used with WoW, which some players like and some players don’t, and Blizzard really doesn’t like (to the extent that they prohibit the use of such programs in their game). Blizzard does have an argument against them for their choice of a name, but I suspect they’ll be hard pressed to prove that WoW Glider significantly hurts their business because it forces them to ban people and drives other users away.

I’m trying to resists using other comparative arguments here because it doesn’t seem to be getting us anywhere, so I’ll leave it at that.

You are, of course, ignoring the realpolitik aspect of this issue. Blizzard has said that botting is against the rules, and a significant section of the playerbase has some to assume that this rule will be enforced. So, if Blizzard doesn’t enforce the rules then you have the poor customer service issues you rant about in your next post.

The further reality is that it’s easier to go after the source than to go after the symptoms. When dealing with piracy (copyright infringement), it’s often better to go after the people that provide the download servers than it is to go after each individual person that downloaded the movie/music/whatever. Blizzard is going after the source here, which is the most cost-efficient thing to do.

Also, as other people point out, this lawsuit serves as warning to other would-be bot writers. Nothing like hanging the body out on display to discourage others.

But, the unfortunately reality is that Blizzard will probably win this. They have the lawyers and the money to drain the other guy dry, right or wrong. Such is the nature of the U.S. legal system these days, unfortunately. In fact, most of the list of complaints is just intended to add more things for the individual to defend against. In reality, all Blizzard really needs to do is to claim trademark infringement for the case. Adding in the other, laughable claims is just something the defendants will have to pay to deal with.

I’m a bit torn here. On one hand, I can understand why Blizzard is doing this and, as a developer, I can sympathize with the reasons. But, that doesn’t mean they’re doing this in the proper way.

My thoughts.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with people creating bots - it’s a free country so go create what you want as long as its not specially made with the intention to harm others such as WoWGlider (I liken it to someone brewing up a bomb for example and have no license to be dealing with anything of the sort). However, if you’re gonna create a bot that can work with a variety of programs and not aimed especially to exploit a program, then your original candy store principle would apply.

I think their main selling point is that it requires quite a bit of effort on the part of their staff in order to monitor the usage of this program and to stop it. Glider was made purposely to cheat and while cheating may not be illegal, they’re essentially forcing Blizzard to spend more money on employees to stop it from happening.

WoW Gilider was made specifically and totally to breach the ToS of WoW. It has no other function. Full stop. End. Finito. Finish.

Zmud, on the other hand, was designed as a legitimate MUD client. It just so happened that it has the ability to automate certain things that certain admins of certain MUDs don’t want automated.

As such, Blizzard have the perfect right to take steps to ensure people cannot use a program that has no other function than to breach the ToS of their game. You try to make an analogy with Zmud, or even MS’s Telnet client that simply doesn’t exist. If Zmud had absolutely no function whatsoever other than to break the ToS of one particular MUD, and was designed from the ground up to do this, or MS’s Telnet client had no purpose except to break one particular MUD, and, again, was designed from the ground up to do this, then, for similar reasons, the makers/operators of the MUDs in question might have a case against ZMud or Microsoft. However, Zmud and Microsoft’s Telnet client are clearly programs intended to do other things that just happen to have the ability to do this as well.

Personally, I have a distinct feeling that this will be settled out of court by the maker of WoW Glider agreeing to shut down his operations and hand over his source code, and make a binding agreement not to code anything similar in the future, in exchange for Blizzard dropping the ‘monetary damages’ part of the lawsuit.

Violation of a Terms of Service agreement is not a crime. Aiding and abetting a violation of Terms of Service is almost certainly not a crime. The sole sanction that the ToS allows (and that a court would likely tolerate) is the cancellation of his World of Warcraft account. The gun analogy is appropriate as is the use of any software utility provided by a third party.

Actually, the best tactic the author of WoW Glider could take would be to fire his lawyer and go to trial… let Blizzard chew up its money on this. This is probably also generating more attention and traffic and sales than the developer could possibly buy through marketing.

Imagine talking to a jury to explain all of the “allowed” mods and extensions to the WoW client vs. the “disallowed” ones.

Oh, and move his server offshore and, maybe, incorporate there (good call on the LLC, Matt).

Microsoft would love to be able to shut down Symantec for the exact same reason - is that OK too?

(I just visited and now its just “Glider” to avoid trademark issue - wisely)

‘So again, what you’re saying is that WoW Glider’s sin is that it can’t “mess with” multiple games. If he had made it more generic and thus gave it the power to help users break the TOS on multiple games, you’d have no issue with it, despite the fact that the supposed negative effect would be far worse and hitting multiple companies?’

Completely missed my point. The point was intent. The makers of Zmud did not purposefully make a client that automates things that the admins of certain MUDs would prefer it didn’t. They simply made a feature-rich MUD client which had features that admins of certain MUDs would prefer it didn’t. Conversely, the maker of WoWGlider purposefully set out to code a program that blatently and willfully broke the ToS of WoW, either simply because he could, or with the actual intention from the outset of selling this program to make money. If WoWGlider purposefully broke the ToS of several games, the only thing that would change is that several companies would have a case against him, not just Blizzard.

As I said, the only way you could compare Zmud with WoWGlider is if Zmud had no other purpose or function than breaching the ToS of one particular MUD, and was designed from the ground up solely to do this. This is not the case.

‘Violation of a Terms of Service agreement is not a crime. Aiding and abetting a violation of Terms of Service is almost certainly not a crime.’

Which is why the maker of WoWGlider is the subject of civil proceedings, not criminal ones. Your point?

‘The sole sanction that the ToS allows (and that a court would likely tolerate) is the cancellation of his World of Warcraft account.’

Except that Blizzard feel that they have suffered damages as the result of him coding a program specifically to breach the ToS of WoW. Just because the issue centres on the breaching of the WoW ToS does not mean that the contract law surrounding that is the ONLY bit of law that applies. Other laws do, too.

‘Imagine talking to a jury to explain all of the “allowed” mods and extensions to the WoW client vs. the “disallowed” ones.’

Well, it’s quite simple - WoWGlider plays the game for you in an automated fashion through the use of a third-party program that runs concurrently with WoW. This is clearly and plainly not allowed. Most, if not all, of the ‘allowed’ addons are simply extra bits of code that are run by the WoW program itself.

‘Microsoft would love to be able to shut down Symantec for the exact same reason - is that OK too?’

Name me one Symantec program that is coded specifically from the ground up to blatently and thoroughly breach any Microsoft EULA or ToS.

Actually, something else just occurred to me - you are also trying to say that if you changed your ToS to ban Zmud, by the same standards, you would then be able to sue it’s maker. Well, no, that’s a second reason why that anaolgy doesn’t hold up - at the time WoWGlider was coded, WoW’s ToS specifically disallowed what WoWGlider did. Blizzard didn’t have to change their ToS to disallow it. Conversely, your ToS, from what you’ve said, currently does NOT disallow Zmud. You would have to change your ToS to disallow it, and create your hypothetical case.

‘Makes no difference at all. The TOS explicitly gives us the ability to change it at will. In any case, if you like, as a hypothetical, assume I’ve started a new MUD with a ToS that does explicitly ban Zmud.’

…in which case, you would have a job explaining how the maker of Zmud could possibly code his program specifically to breach the ToS of your MUD when your MUD wasn’t even thought of when Zmud was coded.

‘Whether Blizzard is suffering damages is completely independent of the alleged intent of the developer of a software program used by Blizzard’s customers. The program is not capable, on its own, of violating Blizzard’s ToS. A user must order the program to violate the ToS. It’s the user that’s guilty, not WoWGlider’s maker.’

WoWGlider has ABSOLUTELY NO FUNCTION WHATSOEVER other than to violate WoW’s ToS. It’s like saying that creating a genetically coded virus that has the sole purpose of killing black people, and only black people, then offering it freely for sale is perfectly fine because someone has to actually start spreading it for it to carry out it’s one, sole, intended function. Of course, it’s a rather more serious situation to do that, but it’s the same principle - according to your argument, the maker of the virus would be in no way responsible because he merely created it. It’s the people who used it that’s completely and totally at fault, despite the fact they bought it directly from the maker.

‘You’re using a false analogy. Creating a virus to kill people is certainly illegal.’

Again, you’ve missed my point. My point has nothing to do with the legality of creating such a virus - it’s to do with moral responsibility. According to your argument, the creator of the virus has zero moral responsibility for this virus killing people, as he was not the one who used it, merely the one who created it and and started offering it for free sale. Yes, the person who actually used the virus also bears responsibility, but so does the creator of it. What Blizzard is saying, essentially, is that the creator of WoWGlider is morally responsible, in part, for the damages Blizzard have suffered. As such, they are taking him to court.

‘Violating a private company’s Terms of Service is in no way illegal and noone who isn’t one of Blizzard’s customers should have to give a fig what a private company’s ToS says.’

Except the creator of WoWGlider obviously did give a ‘fig’, or, at least, enough of one to code a program that specifically and willfully breaks the ToS.

‘It’s a contract between Blizzard and an individual customer.’

And, again, I will point out that the fact the issue centres around WoWGlider’s breach of WoW’s ToS does not automatically mean the contract law that surrounds this is the only part of law that applies. If Blizzard can prove to the court’s satisfaction that the actions of the creator of WoWGlider caused them financial damages, in a direct or indirect manner, then the court has every right to hold him liable for those damages, and this would still be true even if the matter had nothing to do with breaches of WoW’s ToS.

‘What you’re essentially arguing is that a private company should be able to ban certain software/products/activities whether the developer/provider has entered into a contract with them or not.’

Certainly on a moral level, you do have to respect it to the extent that, if you code programs that specifically and willfully breach this ToS, and, as a result, cause financial damages to that company, as they have to put time, money and resources into disabling your program when it is used in conjunction with theirs, then you are liable for that time, money and resources. Frankly, if you think any different, then I think you must have a warped moral code. On a legal level, it can certainly be, at least, argued that, in those circumstances, you are liable for that time, money and resources.

‘You’re arguing that the mere existence of this contract means that third parties should have to respect it, effectively giving law-making power to private individuals.’

How does it give ‘law-making’ power to anyone? If Blizzard were to win, then that would set a precedent, but only for the next case that had the exact same circumstances - that it was someone that deliberately coded a program that was designed to breach the ToS of a game, and the game’s makers suffered damages due to this, and the exact nature of the way in which the program worked. If the next case involved, say, a program that was designed to do something else entirely, but just so happened to breach the ToS of the game in question, then, provided the defendant had a half-decent lawyer, he could argue this case was, in fact, not a precedent.

As another thing, why do you think it is so wrong that someone should have to respect a game’s ToS when he is, essentially, making money off that game, by selling a program that is designed to interact with that game? Hell, makers of mods for WoW that Blizzard actually SUPPORT can’t even sell their mods, due to copyright. Why should he get away with selling such a program, especially when the makers of that game would still have severe objections to the nature of that program even if he were giving it away for free, far less actually giving permission for him to sell it?

Sorry, but you’re degenerating into lunacy now. You’re now trying to say that the maker of WoWGlider is in no way responsible because the very nature of programs require that a user uses them. This would only hold water if WoWGlider’s maker made the program simply as a proof-of-concept, and left it sitting on his machine, never used it himself and never started selling it for others to use, and it ‘got into the wild’, so to speak, because someone hacked into his PC, found it, then distributed it. This, quite simply, is not the case.

You also say that Blizzard are saying that the maker of WoWGlider is legally responsible for damages, not morally responsible. This is semantics - they are saying he is legally responsible because he is morally responsible.

You also try to make a comparison with suing a handgun maker for someone shooting someone else, as the purpose of a gun is to shoot things. Well, you answered that one yourself - the purpose of a handgun is to shoot THINGS. Those things need not necessarily be people, nor need it necessarily fail to be in self-defence.

You also say that I said the crucial point was the intent of the maker. Yes, that was the crucial point as to why your analogy with Zmud or Microsoft’s Telnet client fails to stand up, in your hypothetical scenarios. Now we are talking about why the maker of WoWGlider is in the wrong for making WoWGlider.

As for your comparison with console games, as I recall, in the case you are referring to, they did not claim damages against the developers - they simply tried to say they must abide by the ToS. Blizzard are claiming damages. You got the part about trademarks correct, but there’s one thing you missed - nowadays, console manufacturers license the right to make games for their console to third-party developers in exchange for a slice of the cash from every game/bit of software sold. How far Blizzard’s copyright extends I’m not too sure, but it may very well be the case that WoWGlider may be using code that’s close enough, or even making use of the code of WoW in such a way that it is, in fact, in breach of copyright anyway.

As for this:

‘Allowing a private contract to dictate anything about the behavior of third party boils down to letting someone unilaterally declare a perfectly legal behavior effectively illegal. That’s my problem with it.’

Claiming damages for something actually in no way whatsoever makes it ‘effectively illegal’. It is a legal way of saying ‘this guy’s actions cost me money. I want him to pay me back.’ If you successfully prove your case to the court, the closest it comes to making it ‘effectively illegal’ is set a precedent, so that, if the same circumstances arise again with someone else, you can point to this case and say that the court found for you in the same circumstances before. If the circumstances are different, you can’t.

‘Imagine a ToS for Windows that prohibited making software for Windows without buying the permission (for a hefty sum) from Microsoft first. Microsoft would have to spend LOTS of time and money hunting down developers who weren’t paying.’

Microsoft can, if they so wish, make a ToS like that. Developers are free to develop software for Macs or Linux instead. Do I see a problem with makers of software having complete control over what software is allowed to interact with their code, and in what way? Frankly, no. If you can’t see why this is, there’s no real point in trying to explain it further - you obviously think that anyone should have the right to mess with anything anyone creates, and even make money from that, without the permission of the original creators, or any recompense due to the original creators. All I can say is that I completely and utterly disagree with this, and, considering the legal precedents on game mods, which WoWGlider can arguably also fall under, so does copyright law.

Matt, a day late. Or case late.

In Blizzard vs BNetD, it was established that you may only use a program with the approved online services, in the approved manner. And that you are liable if your program allows otherwise.

As Glider runs WoW as a client process, it is undenyably in breach of this. (You can only use WoW-straight with the server, using a spawned WoW-Glider process is not authorised by Blizzard).

They do fly. And people wonder why I cried foul over Blizzard vs BNetD!

I believe that the thrust of the BNetD case was that the product helped intentionally circumvent the anti-piracy protection provided by the Battle.Net service and was thus in violation of the DMCA (which is why you can still download BnetD outside of the US, last I checked), not a violation of the terms of service which would apply worldwide.

Glider does nothing to circumvent copyright. If it did, Blizzard would have come down much harder, and more effectively, against its makers.

I disagree, strongly, with that interpretation. It’s one argument, yes, but it does not match the legal argument made by Blizzard and to which the judge agreed. The actual DMCA claims discussed at the trial were quite watered down. The case revolved arround if the EULA could constrain you to the operator-approved methods of running the game and playing it online.

Oops hit submit - …playing it online, regardless of your actual standing in regards agreeing to the EULA (that there is implied agreement by running the game).

The actual decision: http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/doc/2004/bnetd_30sep.pdf

2 of the 3 decided claims were related to DMCA and the anti-circumvention features of Battle.net, 1 to EULA violation.

However, WoW allows extensions to the client, so the debate is substantially complicated (did Glider reverse engineer over and above what is allowed via the API mods?).

Blizzard has done nothing to stop sites that discuss the API such as: http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API, among others.

Oh, and I’m sure Blizzard would like a discussion about how the EULA allows them to run Warden on people’s computers.

Hmm. The whole ‘defence’ of WoWGlider seems to hing on the idea that the ToS and EULA were never agreed to by the company, MDY Industries, LLC.

Who did the actual coding of WoWGlider?

Michael Donnelly.

Who set up MDY Industries, LLC?

Michael Donnelly.

Who is being sued?

Michael Donnelly.

Did Michael Donnelly ever install and play WoW, and therefore agree to the ToS and EULA?

It would be kinda hard for him to code and develop WoWGlider if he didn’t.

Incidentally, I note that you have conveniently ignored the fact that Blizzard’s suit is, in fact, a response to Michael Donnelly’s suit. What did you expect Blizzard to do? Sit back and do nothing?

‘If MDY Industries is the owner of WowGlider then I’m not sure it matters much whether one of its officers agreed to the ToS. MDY owns it and MDY would have to agree.’

Michael Donnelly coded WoWGlider. If MDY Industries now, legally speaking, owns WoWGlider, this is only due to the fact Michael Donnelly passed ownership of WoWGlider over to MDY Industries (which, effectively, is simply him with another hat on). He is still liable as an individual for his actions in coding it in the first place, and liable as an individual for his actions in continuing the development of it, if he has expressly agreed to a contract that forbids him doing this, as the ToS and EULA of WoW does.

‘We’re not in a position to know where Michael Donnelly agreed to the ToS as an individual or whether MDY agreed as an LLC.’

Either way, the actual person who agreed was Michael Donnelly. It was him who broke this agreement by coding the program.

‘I’m perfectly willing to grant that he may have agreed as an LLC but there’s no evidence either way really.’

Well, if he agreed as a representative of MDY Industries, then his company is definately in violation of the ToS and EULA. If he agreed as an individual, then he was still the one who originally coded it, so he is still liable for that reason, so whether he had his company hat on or not is entirely irrelevant - the simple fact of the matter is he expressly committed to an agreement that prevented him from coding a program like WoWGlider, then went ahead and did so, anyway. The fact his company basically consists of him, and not much else, actually simplifies things tremendously - it means Blizzard can still pursue him whether he tries to claim it’s the company’s fault or not.

‘Further, I think what you’re missing is that Michael Donnelly sued Blizzard only after they literally showed up at his door with a lawyer. That’s quite the implicit (and probably explicit) threat.’

Yeah, they said ’stop what you’re doing or we’ll sue’. They even did this in person, so there was no miscommunication, and showed him exactly what they reckoned the legal situation was. Do you think it would have been better to simply slap him with court papers out of the blue? It was only after he turned around and slapped them with court papers, trying to get the courts to declare that he did not, in fact, breach any rights or agreements with Blizzard, which, it seems to me, is about as clear a ‘go and fuck yourself’ as you can get, that Blizzard decided to go ahead and countersue and launch the original lawsuit they outlined.

PlayNoEvil, and because it’s not an authorised modification, that makes no difference. There’s a reason I advise mod teams not to take American members these days.

One thing that also may be in Blizzard’s favor. If for example a movie comes out and a different company comes along and makes a product related SPECIFICALLY to the movie and makes money off of it, the company that made the movie may sue them and WILL win. Glider is a product that makes money specifically b/c WoW exists. There was no permission requested to make Glider. If it were generic, it would not be illegal, but the fact that it is used solely to use on WoW means they made money and used Blizzard’s product to make a profit. MDY or whomever is going to lose and lose large.

Personally I use Glider and I will tell you nothing on the Glider Website actually says we “have” to use the program. He clearly states on his site that his product is in violation of the ToS so anyone who purchases or downloads the Demo is doing so at their own choice to violate the ToS.

Personally I think Blizz is just blowing hot air, though I don’t agree with alot of people who use the bot for days on end to farm items to sell gold and such (I use it when I’m doing chores or cooking for the BF and not for farming/mass lvling). It’s the individual’s choice to break the ToS not the company that makes the product since he hasn’t shoved it down our throats and “made” us use the product.

Though when I think about it the only people I’ve know to be Baned are those that have used the Keyboards w/ built in macros (the ones blizzard approves of and recommends using) or used Linux with the Windows within a window (yes he was missing the .net frame work required to run all bots that i know of).

Both of my friends where banned for Botting when I know they didn’t and it’s actually their Bans that got me into botting because I decided if I could be banned for using the recommended wow keyboard I might as well be actually breaking the ToS.

Later all

The more I read about this the more I have to agree with Matt’s point of view. Blizzard is taking a pretty wide shot here… although I can understand them trying to get rid of wowglider. And if all botters disappeared overnight I most certainly would be pleased. (imho if ya cant be bothered to put effort in a game than ya might as well not play it and do everyone a favour.) But Blizzard’s ground in this case against MDY is very shaky at best.

Only the users of wowglider are breaking any agreements and thus only they are “punishable”.
You can only be convicted because of breaking the (written) law… And MDY did not. “In-between-the-lines-law” doesnt exist.

What I think is that its an attempt by Blizzard to get cases as this covered by law in the future. I doubt there is a very extensive law describing matters concerning an online game. “New” sorts of business require new laws.

by the way.. its almost as easy to screw botters in world of warcraft as it is messing up automated macro’s of Zmud in Achaea. And almost as much fun.

Quite a lot of misinformation in this discussion.

Tortuous Interference is probabily the biggest thing on blizzards side here against MDY.. his program exists solely to induce people to break their contracts with Blizzard.

Secondly is the DMCA, WoWGlider also loads WoW into a separate memory space to get around Blizzards copy protection and security methods which are implemented in their warden process.. thus violating the DMCA hands down. Blizzard already won a similar cast to this and had it upheld in US District Court.

Thirdly, the EULA/TOS stipulation preventing reverse engineering has also been upheld in court and I dont see any way that MDY could have developed Glider without violating this clause.

Blizzard NEEDS to win this, and what they did to provoke MDY into sueing them borders on pure genious.. MDY did exactly what Blizzard wants them to do.. now Blizzard is on the defensive on this.. a much easier position to prove their claims from.

This is coming from a gamer’s point of view…
I’ve been playing WoW since it came out and have enjoyed playing this game since. And one of the main reasons I like WoW more than most of the older MMO’s is that they are strict on the whole “cheating” thing that goes on in a lot, if not all of the games. Blizzard/WoW seems to actaully care and put effort in maintaining the game play value of the game.

But it becomes really frustrating, from a gamers stand point, to work hard at getting a char. LvL’d or maybe get him some nice gear just to see some freakin bot do what took you months, in a matter of a week!

So, in the eyes of a true gamer and in the case of WoW, those who use BoTs are people who just want to take the easy way to a good char. Who havn’t earned Anything that there char.’s have, or are. They just clicked a button and went and watched tv for a couple weeks and then Presto! They have what took a real gamer months and months to do.

And I know what you are saying right now, “Well it’s ‘gamers’ who are useing this product.” No… it’s lazy-idiot-gamer-wanna-be’s who are useing this product. Ask any true gamer and they will tell you the same. That anyone who has a product like WoWGlider has not “earned” anything that their char has, it was all just given to them on a sivler platter by people from MDY.

Now some of you may be saying, “well that’s not the point, the point is whether or not Blizz should have sued them, blah blah blah”. Ok I get that, congradualtions. But to be honest, I just want companies like MDY to be shut down, cause I hate hackers (that’s what we call people who use cheater services like WoWGlider). And if it takes blizzard sueing them to stop the hackers, then by all means! Sue Away! i don’t care if ya got to burn the MDY head Quarters to the freakin ground. (Assuming there is an MDY head quarters) as long as ya stop the freakin hackers from playing in WoW. It ruins the game play and pisses true gamers off.

I also noticecd that some in this forum said something along the lines of, “WoWGlider is just making the product, it’s the gamers that are useing them. They are innocent.” Lol! Let me give you a little analogy so you can hear how dumb you sound when you say that… “Well officer, all i do is make the crack! Their the ones who actaully use it, arrest them!” And doesn’t it say in the WoWGlider Forums that they Admit that this is illegal, and warn their cheater-users that they can get banned for useing their Illegal product. lol How are you people missing this!? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here!

But long story shot, just remember, this is all from the eyes of a gamer. Yes, the gamer. The Very people that are directly impacted by these “WoWGlider” people. The people who dont care how Bots are taken down, just that they are. So go on with all your “Do they have the right to do this, blah blah blah” crap. But just remember. Blizzard gets the vote from the gamer. Blizzard FTW!

love,
The Voice of the Gamer

Hei!how do i get an wow glider? i rly need one..i dont have time for grinding my self..i have school and job so not much time for World of Warcraft..would be geart if you could answer me..thanks!=)

To Voice of the Gamer,

Marius said almost exactly the same thing I was thinking a month after I started WOW. Leveling needed time (exp and skills), play with friends in dungeon need time, and wife is constantly demanding attention. I was so exhausted.

So one day while I was fishing, I finally decided to make a bot. A the fisher bot was born in 2 days. Then later on the fighter bot. I call it zoloFisher/zoloFighter because one of my friends allows me to use his site to publish it.

So here are what the gamers really want: A great gaming experience, where they can leveling relaxed, sometimes with challenge (we the gamer pick the challenge depend on our mode), socialize sometimes.

There will always be botters. That is because anyone with a real job and life will be hard pressed to squeeze the time to grind to 70, or spend 5 hours in raids. Instead of trying to ban botters, Blizzard should think of ways to please the gamers better.

Below are some examples that I could think of:
1. Create dungeons that are soloable, but hard enough for the stupid bots.
2. Add more XP/rewards for quests to encourage players to play instead of botting.

Have you ever tried to block the flow of water in a stream? See how hard that is? If you try to lead it away, it is much easier. Always lead, don’t block.

I enjoy playing WoW. I have played for around 3 months now and have found it a chore to level a character. If blizzard would put more quests and ect into the game, (IE make it fun) then we probally wouldn’t have programs created that do it for you. I have read all of this interview and i would like to say that you all have a VERY good point. I believe that blizzard has no right, though to tell a programmer what to do with there product they make. Programming isnt easy, and it makes me sad to see such a large company like blizzard to complain about such a minor issue. Why bann players that pay you money for your service. If they actually listen to the players, (still have not received a responce) then they could better the game. The only reason that i am still playing WoW is because of WoWglider (Glider). the game is fun and exciting, but gets borring around the higher levels. I understand the EULA/ToS and accepted it, but seriously how much harm has this done? Why does blizzard insist on playing this game. They know they ar making money off every account, and im sure they are not loosing money. Im just a simple 20 year old male and want to play a game i pay for the way i want to play it. IF blizzard bans me, its not the end of the world. Just a video game.

LOL, same here, I would have given up a long time ago, but now I am in it day and night, partly for my old friend and guides, and partly for the excitement of hacking WOW.

Its stupid, if they sue wow glider i demand that they let me
win if i sue the whole weapon industry in the USA…

btw for “the gamer”
a true gamer doesnt care about bots
couse he knows that a bot is always worse than a real skillfull player
if the bot is faster than you than its becouse you have no skills
and its not the fault of the bot that there are so many “noobs” in this
world
i for myself botted cause i gave up my first account (thought i wouldnt play
it ever again…) and now im not willing to do the same old stuff again
what i can tell you is: botting is way slower regarding /played time
the good thing is you can do something else at the same time
so without it i would stop paying for wow

-what blizz should do is imo pretend to stop the botters for the
customers who have heard only those bad storys and meanwhile
stop only the godlfarmers but let the botters allone
since they arent really affecting the rest of the playerbase

Sisca said: ” If you read their forums the major worry of the users is “delete the database plx or they’ll ban us!!”. ”

Nobody ever says that in those forums.

I glide and sell accounts. You know what that means? an extra open account every time I sell. I’m helping blizzard.

Agree with you about players faster than bots (because the game interface is designed for players, not bots).

And I use bot too, with my my own bot. I am playing this game because of my friends. We played since college days, and not all of us has that much time ever again. Myself play about 2 hours each week, and it is impossible to keep up with them. Botting is the only way and I would have given up WOW years ago without my bot.

So I do believe bots help Blizzard, myself has been a loyal paying customer for 2+ years now.

Been reading alot about ALL this mess. Found WOW glider today after seeing a guy in the game do the same thing hour after hour. Another player pointed it out to me cause he was trying to beat the bot to a couple of the kills for his own quest.

That is neither here nor there however i am just at work and surfing (I have a very boring job) about the program before i consider putting up the 25$

After some of the reading i have been doing here and else where it has doned on me. How much money does one company (or at least the CEO’s the little guys always get the short end of the stick) need? Lets see what is it 20$ bucks a month times how many millions of players? I have always liked Blizzard for there games and look FWD to a specific new title they are bring out in the next few months (I Hope). So another company trys to step up with way to help the player who is spending hours playing and wants to make a fourtune in the process. There is no moral problem with this in my book there are several things in life that i am glad have been improved on and people who have made there money with these improvments.

All of this being said in the american (Yes i live here) leagal system is no longer to protect the blue color, Working class, Small business people, or even the people who are there to inforce it (I.E. Police and other security type Personell. It is now there for BIG Buisnesses, Illeagal Immigrants, and Criminals. So in the end the glider program will loose the battle. In closing i think when i get off of work tonight i am going to go ahead and pay for it and run a bot all night long. See if i can get myself banned. Cause if they ban you you don’t pay them. simple as that if i get banned then i’m out does not matter to me i have other things in life to do as well.

On a final note the leagal system is this way cause we made this way with the first of many many stupid stupid lawsuits witch all started with an old lady, a hot cup of coffee, and the mcdonalds chain. WE DID THIS TO OURSELFS Now it is get all that can from anyone for anything. and that is what you are seeing here. America is imploding on itself with stupidity i hope i am not here when it happens.

Have a great day…

Violation of a Terms of Service agreement is not a crime. Aiding and abetting a violation of Terms of Service is almost certainly not a crime. The sole sanction that the ToS allows (and that a court would likely tolerate) is the cancellation of his World of Warcraft account. The gun analogy is appropriate as is the use of any software utility provided by a third party.

Actually, the best tactic the author of WoW Glider could take would be to fire his lawyer and go to trial… let Blizzard chew up its money on this. This is probably also generating more attention and traffic and sales than the developer could possibly buy through marketing.

Imagine talking to a jury to explain all of the “allowed” mods and extensions to the WoW client vs. the “disallowed” ones.

Oh, and move his server offshore and, maybe, incorporate there (good call on the LLC, Matt).

Microsoft would love to be able to shut down Symantec for the exact same reason - is that OK too?

(I just visited and now its just “Glider” to avoid trademark issue - wisely)

If your good at the game you can level yourself alot faster then wow glider, with a world of warcraft guide I can level a character from 1-80 in about 5 days played time