<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.0.3" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Billing Stupidity</title>
	<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/</link>
	<description>A blog on virtual worlds, games, and digital content, from Matt Mihaly</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: Villified by Visa</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-17216</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 04:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-17216</guid>
					<description>[...] If you wonder why you, too, should hate Verified by Visa, read this post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] If you wonder why you, too, should hate Verified by Visa, read this post. [&#8230;]
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Andrew Crystall</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1461</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1461</guid>
					<description>mm. In the UK, Chin &amp;#38; Spin...er, Pin is now basically mandatory. So you have to pin. Everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mm. In the UK, Chin &amp; Spin&#8230;er, Pin is now basically mandatory. So you have to pin. Everywhere.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Iruen</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1428</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1428</guid>
					<description>&quot;Those security numbers on all the credit cards are funny. At the place where I used to work, the credit card machine asked for the number, but one day I discovered that if you didn’t have it, you could just push enter and it would go through anyways. Wonder how many business have credit card machines that cheat like that.&quot;

In all the restaurants, shops and other money sinks I go I've never had to put my PIN number anywhere (I would refuse to do that in front of everybody just by principle). They have a receipt that I have to sign, without it being signed by me they cannot make VISA pay them if I refuse to pay. They need the physical card, though, if they introduce the name manually I have 24h to complain and reject the payment. So, lots of bussiness at least in Europe have credit card readers cheating like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Those security numbers on all the credit cards are funny. At the place where I used to work, the credit card machine asked for the number, but one day I discovered that if you didn’t have it, you could just push enter and it would go through anyways. Wonder how many business have credit card machines that cheat like that.&#8221;</p>
<p>In all the restaurants, shops and other money sinks I go I&#8217;ve never had to put my PIN number anywhere (I would refuse to do that in front of everybody just by principle). They have a receipt that I have to sign, without it being signed by me they cannot make VISA pay them if I refuse to pay. They need the physical card, though, if they introduce the name manually I have 24h to complain and reject the payment. So, lots of bussiness at least in Europe have credit card readers cheating like that.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Andrew Crystall</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1391</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1391</guid>
					<description>Don't get me started on the banking industry.

Hint: Bitslice processors. Used by NASA's 70's Space Shuttles... and the banking industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t get me started on the banking industry.</p>
<p>Hint: Bitslice processors. Used by NASA&#8217;s 70&#8217;s Space Shuttles&#8230; and the banking industry.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Acrune</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1380</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1380</guid>
					<description>Those security numbers on all the credit cards are funny. At the place where I used to work, the credit card machine asked for the number, but one day I discovered that if you didn't have it, you could just push enter and it would go through anyways. Wonder how many business have credit card machines that cheat like that.

I now work at Comp USA. Interesting to note that Visa has more uses then pretty much all the other credit cards combined, especially if you count the Visa debit cards as Visa. Also interesting that American express makes us do a little extra work in processing them. Thats the only card where we are required to enter a security number (the others don't make us enter one, even if we enter the card number manually). We also have to use one of those old printing machines where you put the card and the receipt in, close it, and it prints the card number onto the receipt. Not sure if American Express requires the same thing of everyone.

Also rather striking that about 1/3 people either have no signature, or a barely visible one on their card.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those security numbers on all the credit cards are funny. At the place where I used to work, the credit card machine asked for the number, but one day I discovered that if you didn&#8217;t have it, you could just push enter and it would go through anyways. Wonder how many business have credit card machines that cheat like that.</p>
<p>I now work at Comp USA. Interesting to note that Visa has more uses then pretty much all the other credit cards combined, especially if you count the Visa debit cards as Visa. Also interesting that American express makes us do a little extra work in processing them. Thats the only card where we are required to enter a security number (the others don&#8217;t make us enter one, even if we enter the card number manually). We also have to use one of those old printing machines where you put the card and the receipt in, close it, and it prints the card number onto the receipt. Not sure if American Express requires the same thing of everyone.</p>
<p>Also rather striking that about 1/3 people either have no signature, or a barely visible one on their card.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Brask Mumei</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1368</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1368</guid>
					<description>From the TOS from one of the Verified by Visa banks in Royal Bank in Canada...

&quot;You are solely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password, Registration Data and other verification information established by you with Verified by Visa, and all activities that occur using your password, Registration Data or other verification information supplied to or established by you with Verified by Visa. &quot; ... &quot;If someone gets hold of your RBC Visa card number and your password or other verification information, in a way that enables them to be used together, you will be responsible for all their use of the Visa card number.&quot;

Then, later on, the mollify it somewhat:
&quot;However, in the event that you can demonstrate that all reasonable precautions were taken to protect your RBC Visa card number and the confidentiality of your password or other verification information, you will not be held responsible for their unauthorized use.&quot;

I'm glad they have at least added that clause.  I do not remember it being there when I first read one of these agreements.  I still don't like the idea that *I* become responsible for the confidentiality of the password, and I'm worried about how I &quot;demonstrate&quot; a negative.  How can I demonstrate to their satisfaction that I didn't do something stupid with my password?  Either they take my word, in which case this becomes a rather easy thing to fulfill, or they demand &quot;proof&quot;, in which case it becomes an irrelevant consolation as I can't account for every hour of my life to show I didn't leak the information somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the TOS from one of the Verified by Visa banks in Royal Bank in Canada&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;You are solely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password, Registration Data and other verification information established by you with Verified by Visa, and all activities that occur using your password, Registration Data or other verification information supplied to or established by you with Verified by Visa. &#8221; &#8230; &#8220;If someone gets hold of your RBC Visa card number and your password or other verification information, in a way that enables them to be used together, you will be responsible for all their use of the Visa card number.&#8221;</p>
<p>Then, later on, the mollify it somewhat:<br />
&#8220;However, in the event that you can demonstrate that all reasonable precautions were taken to protect your RBC Visa card number and the confidentiality of your password or other verification information, you will not be held responsible for their unauthorized use.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad they have at least added that clause.  I do not remember it being there when I first read one of these agreements.  I still don&#8217;t like the idea that *I* become responsible for the confidentiality of the password, and I&#8217;m worried about how I &#8220;demonstrate&#8221; a negative.  How can I demonstrate to their satisfaction that I didn&#8217;t do something stupid with my password?  Either they take my word, in which case this becomes a rather easy thing to fulfill, or they demand &#8220;proof&#8221;, in which case it becomes an irrelevant consolation as I can&#8217;t account for every hour of my life to show I didn&#8217;t leak the information somewhere.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Tuebit</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1365</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1365</guid>
					<description>Hopefully, they're &quot;reasonable&quot; about it. I was recently 'forced' to subscribe to the program (I forget what I was buying at the time ... it was either sign-up, or don't buy). I didn't even think to investigate the impact on my liability for fraudulent purchases.  Hopefully, I haven't screwed myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully, they&#8217;re &#8220;reasonable&#8221; about it. I was recently &#8216;forced&#8217; to subscribe to the program (I forget what I was buying at the time &#8230; it was either sign-up, or don&#8217;t buy). I didn&#8217;t even think to investigate the impact on my liability for fraudulent purchases.  Hopefully, I haven&#8217;t screwed myself.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Matt</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1363</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1363</guid>
					<description>Interesting, Tuebit. How effective that protection is derives, I guess, from how hard it is to convince the card issuer that you didn't make the purchase.

--matt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting, Tuebit. How effective that protection is derives, I guess, from how hard it is to convince the card issuer that you didn&#8217;t make the purchase.</p>
<p>&#8211;matt
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Tuebit</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1361</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1361</guid>
					<description>Heh ... in Canada, at least, the verified by visa FAQ appears to say that you're still protected.

&quot;Am I still covered by Visa's Zero Liability policy if someone fraudulently uses my password?

Yes. Visa's Zero Liability policy protects you against the unauthorized use of your VISA card even if someone fraudulently uses your Verified by Visa password. You must be able to establish to the satisfaction of your Card Issuer that you did not make the purchase.&quot; from http://www.visa.ca/verified/card_faq.cfm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh &#8230; in Canada, at least, the verified by visa FAQ appears to say that you&#8217;re still protected.</p>
<p>&#8220;Am I still covered by Visa&#8217;s Zero Liability policy if someone fraudulently uses my password?</p>
<p>Yes. Visa&#8217;s Zero Liability policy protects you against the unauthorized use of your VISA card even if someone fraudulently uses your Verified by Visa password. You must be able to establish to the satisfaction of your Card Issuer that you did not make the purchase.&#8221; from <a href='http://www.visa.ca/verified/card_faq.cfm' rel='nofollow'>http://www.visa.ca/verified/card_faq.cfm</a>
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Brask Mumei</title>
		<link>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1354</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://forge.ironrealms.com/2006/09/17/billing-stupidity/#comment-1354</guid>
					<description>Now you know why they offer free ipods for people to sign up for that program.  I like the idea of Verified by Visa on paper.  I'm quite willing to register a pin to reduce fraud - theoritically reduced fraud benefits the consumer when merchants don't have to hike prices to take into account charge backs.  But I did, as a consumer, read the fine print.  I am thus trying my best to never sign up for that evil, evil, program.  You are correct that by signing up to the program you lose all protection for all transactions done with the pin.  Considering that only two times so far I've had my card cancelled due to it being stolen was when merchants managed to have my information stolen rather than negligence on my part, I think I have some reason to be leary about surrendering my protection.

My fear is that some large enough merchant that I rely on will decide that they have enough control of the market to screw the customer and will demand this program, forcing me to transition.  I've made a point of educating people around me to the nature of this program, so I'm glad you have done so in a more broadcast fashion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now you know why they offer free ipods for people to sign up for that program.  I like the idea of Verified by Visa on paper.  I&#8217;m quite willing to register a pin to reduce fraud - theoritically reduced fraud benefits the consumer when merchants don&#8217;t have to hike prices to take into account charge backs.  But I did, as a consumer, read the fine print.  I am thus trying my best to never sign up for that evil, evil, program.  You are correct that by signing up to the program you lose all protection for all transactions done with the pin.  Considering that only two times so far I&#8217;ve had my card cancelled due to it being stolen was when merchants managed to have my information stolen rather than negligence on my part, I think I have some reason to be leary about surrendering my protection.</p>
<p>My fear is that some large enough merchant that I rely on will decide that they have enough control of the market to screw the customer and will demand this program, forcing me to transition.  I&#8217;ve made a point of educating people around me to the nature of this program, so I&#8217;m glad you have done so in a more broadcast fashion.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
